Episode 1

Red Pin Podcast, Episode 1 Transcript

Host: Will Penoncello   

Guest: Dr. Justin Lavner, Professor of Psychology at the University of Georgia

** Introduction**

(Host): Attention UG undergrads. Are you looking for an outlet that gives you the freedom and creativity to write about any topic in your field of study? Visit the University of Georgia’s classic journal to get a chance to publish your work. Whether your passion lies in English literature, the archives of history, sociological phenomena, or the transformative narratives of women’s studies, The Classic Journal has an outlet for you. The Classic Journal features essays and articles in all fields of study so you can showcase the knowledge and skills you’ve gained during your undergrad experience. The possibilities are endless. Visit the classicjournal.ua.edu to promote your research and achievement. That’s the classic journal.edu. Join us and embark on a journey of scholarly discovery and self-expression. Welcome to Red Pin, a podcast about viewing writing through the lens of higher education. I’m your host, Will Peninsel, and today my guest will be Dr. Ladner from the Department of Psychology at the University of Georgia. Why should humans communicate? How does communication shape our relationships? What is the role of modern technology in the realm of communication? Stay tuned as we dive deep into these questions in the first episode of Between a Rock and a Headspace.

** Introduction of Dr. Lavner**

(Host): Alright, Dr. Lavner, thank you for uh being on the show today. Could you just give a brief introduction of yourself?

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah, so I’m uh Justin Lavner. I’m a professor of psychology here at UG and I’m the director of clinical training as as well. I’m trained as a clinical psychologist and I study couples and families and uh what predicts positive relationships and how we can design interventions to help promote couple and family health and well-being.

(Host): Awesome. Uh how long have you been uh teaching?

** Dr. Lavner’s Experience at UG**

(Dr. Lavner): Uh so I I came to UJ in 2014. So this is my 11th uh year here now.

(Host): Awesome. Awesome. Do you like it?

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love I love being at UG. I feel like it’s a great community of students and staff and faculty. and um yeah, happy to be happy to be able to go.

(Host): All right, awesome. Well, uh what’s a project now that you’re working on that you’re really passionate about?

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah, so I have a couple of different projects that I think uh kind of reflect kind of my interest in promoting positive relationships. So, one is a new one that um is is just getting underway now funded by the Department of Defense. This is with one of my colleagues, Dr. Brian Bower. And so, Dr. Bower studies suicide and suicide prevention. And so, we teamed up and we’re gonna do an intervention that’s a couple based intervention to help proh prevent prevent suicide and suicidal kind of crisis symptoms among veterans and and their partners. And so we’re really excited about that. So that’s kind of one project that I’ve going on. And the other one is with some uh collaborators also at UG, Dr. Erin Dolan and Dr. Emily Rosenwag. And we’re designing an intervention to help uh mentors in STEM um with their graduate students and kind of applying a lot of some of the same sorts of principles about um kind of positive relationships and positive communication on some of the things that we’re going to be talking about today.

** Importance of Communication**

(Host): Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s some really important stuff. Yeah, exactly what you said. We’re going to be talking about communication today. I just wanted to start uh you know, Psych 101. They teach you that humans are social creatures. You know, that we’re kind of in innately supposed to communicate to each other. And um you know, why why is that the case with us?

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. So I think that’s really interesting you say it right. So I think you know when I took I remember when I took psych 101 I think you know I was so interested in like oh I’m going to learn about like the inner workings of the mind right and and you kind of do but I think the other thing that becomes so interesting when you’re taking psych 101 is you realize like oh actually like again as you said like it’s not just you know intraind individual it’s interindividual as well. And so you know I think a lot of that kind of comes down to you know evolutionary bases right that you know we are um more likely to to live basically if we’re connected to other people and so I think you know kind of in our evolutionary past and then you know that’s kind of continued right we need that to kind of continue being a species right we need to obviously be connected to other people and we need to kind of raise raise so you in terms of the couple and family um relationship stuff there but I think you pulled up there’s this really great quote from Oscar Wild where it says uh he said ultimately the bond of all companionship whether in marriage or in friendship is conversation and so I think that kind of comes back to, you know, this point about um communication, right? And why it’s so important is, you know, again, you know, we we think about kind of what’s going on in in our own heads, right? But the only way kind of other people kind of, you know, can engage with us is through some form of communication, whether that’s kind of verbal communication or non-verbal communication. Basically, that that is the way that we connect with others is by communicating. So, I think that’s why it’s so important and and that’s why I think, you know, it can be so challenging, too, right? I think because it because it has this um like there’s kind of an additional weight to it, right? Because it’s it’s it’s the way that we build interpersonal bonds too. So, you know, it’s not just like oh like it it has like a really important function um that then kind of feels very weighty and kind of very personally meaningful to us.

(Host): Yeah, that’s where that’s very well said. What are the sort of the effects of like kind of isolation and like not being able to communicate to other people.

** Effects of Isolation**

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. So, I mean, I think that’s one thing that we’ve seen a lot of actually, right, is kind of this kind of rise in like you what’s been called like the loneliness epidemic and how, you know, a lot of people feel like there’s not a lot of people that they can connect with that they’re close to. I think, you know, and and it’s funny in some ways, right? Because, you know, on the one hand, we have kind of the most kind of interconnected kind of world ever, right, with kind of all social media stuff, you know, way more than we used to. But, you know, at the same time, we’ve seen kind of a drop off in things like um like this sociologist wrote this book called Bowling Alone and so things like kind of bowling leagues that people would used to be part of or other sorts of kind of community and civic organizations that those sorts of things have kind of dropped off um a lot you know involvement in those and so I think you’re seeing that you know lots of people are kind of reporting that there’s not that many people that they feel like they’re kind of connected with and we see that you know kind of increases in loneliness and and there’s some research suggesting that being kind of you feelings of loneliness are as damaging for our health um as other sorts of like real like health risk behaviors. So things like smoking or substance use or things like that. And so I think definitely like being connected to people and um you know again which kind of relies on good communication um is really important for our health and well-being.

(Host): Yeah, I I definitely I think in our society there is a lot of that sort of isolation kind of rising especially after like co 19. I think that’s where a lot of that really started to come into play. So, yeah, I definitely agree with you about that. Um, you know, you did a you did a meta analysis in 2021 about the correlation between communication behaviors and relationship quality between couples.

(Dr. Lavner): Y

(Host): uh I I would just like you to talk about that and sort of the uh implications that that study kind of has to offer to society about, you know, why it’s important to positively communicate uh within a relationship. You Yeah.

** Dr. Lavner’s Meta-Analysis on Communication in Couples**

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. So here so kind of basically what we were looking at is kind of within the you know context of couples relationships how do kind of both both positive as well as negative relationship or negative relationship communication predict couples satisfaction kind of a few years down the road as well as whether they’re still together. And and what we found there was that you know basically couples who communicate more positively with one another as well as less negatively report being more satisfied a few years later. Um and then in terms of um dissolution, so kind of whether couples are still together or not, we saw that there was a small kind of effect for positive communication. It wasn’t significant, but was kind of in the same kind of direction we’d expect, but a significantly statistic effect of negative communication on dissolution. So, so there basically again, so couples who communicated more positively, less negatively, not only were kind of the ones who stayed together were more satisfied, but then um the others actually were more likely to break up. So, So they are kind of couples who were not communicating positively um and communicating negatively were kind of more likely to dissolve their relationships. And so you I think what it what it tells us is you again kind of when we’re thinking about our intimate relationships or couple relationships that these are kind of often one of the most if not the most kind of important interpersonal relationship that we have with people who are in them. Um and so there again you’re kind of having to interact with your partner about a lot of different things, right? And so some of those things are just kind of mundane everyday kind of things like, you know, who’s going grocery shopping, who’s going to clean up around the house. And then other things are going to be much more kind of weighty. So, you know, things where maybe you you had a tough day at work and you need support from your partner, you’re kind of deal with some difficult stuff in your family or other sorts of relationships or um you know, you and your your partner are having kind of some weighty conversations about kind of your future and what do you want to do? And so, I think in in these contexts particularly kind of wanting to, you know, again, really think about how how are the partners interacting there and um and again kind of seeing here I think you know what’s interesting too is is I think you know really kind of separating out like that people can be kind of high on on positive and high on negative right so that those are different you know kind of dimensions basically and so it’s not just kind of one single dimension that people are on so you know when we’re thinking about positive communication behaviors it’s things like kind of warmth and validation and empathy um versus ne negative communication behaviors would be things like hostility and criticism, uh, contempt for the partner. And so I think, you know, when we hear those things, I think a lot of us like to think, oh, of course, I’m going to, you know, interact in this way. But I think, you know, I think oftentimes when we kind of pause conversations and we look at them kind of bit by bit, we actually start to see some of those negatives start to start to slip in.

(Host): Yeah, for sure. I think really like with any sort of intimate or intimate relationship, uh, it’s not always going to be positive because you’re kind of going through like the hardest stages of life with that person.

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah.

(Host): How are what are some practical methods that people can use to sort of reinforce those positive communication strategies? You know, like how do you stay positive in a negative situation?

** Maintaining Positivity in Challenging Situations**

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. So, yes, I think you’re absolutely right. So, I think kind of that, you know, as you said, like you know, relationships are not going to be and I think that’s, you know, I think one of the biggest misnomers about relationships, right? Is that oh, like if you have a a good relationship means never, you know, You know, I think people say like, “Oh, good relationship means never having to say you’re sorry, right? Or it means that you don’t have problems.” And I I actually don’t think that’s true. And I don’t think the research says that’s true either, right? I think what kind of good relationships are the ones that can kind of actually tackle the problems they’re facing headon and be able to talk about them kind of in a, you know, mostly positive way. And, you know, and I think in terms of people doing that, you know, I think a couple of things. And so, I think one thing is I think sometimes, you know, one thing I encourage couples to do when I when I worked with couples clinically is to really kind of focus on building their communication skills at times when they were not dealing with a serious issue because because then you’re kind of almost facing a double whammy, right? It’s like, oh, you have a big problem that you’re trying to tackle and you’re maybe not that good at communicating yet, right? So, what you want to do is you actually kind of want to practice kind of communicating so that like you have that kind of skill, you know, comm you want to practice, you know, communicating about maybe more like moderate sorts of things so that when you have bigger things that you’re not kind of trying to navigate both the communication challenge as well as the problem challenge. Um I think one thing that happens a lot when people have kind of difficult conversations I think they kind of get overwhelmed. And so you know one thing that I always encourage couples to do is like just kind of slow down, right? Like you don’t actually need to respond right away, right? Like you also kind of need to think about like hey like am I in the best headsp space right now? Or maybe you thought you were in a good headsp space but then as the conversations kind getting going, you realize, hey, like this is maybe getting away from us. Like you kind of notice like, oh, maybe you’re kind of not listening as much or your voice is getting louder. And so what, you know, I encourage couple you to really like almost like we call them like timeouts. And you know, some people don’t like that term, but you I think about it in a you know, sports sports kind of metaphor, right? That you’re thinking about it as like you’re taking a timeout basically to slow down um and kind of get yourself together basically. So I think that’s one thing is kind of as you’re having this like really thinking about like, hey, are you in the in the right headsp space? Like you can just kind of slow down the process, too. I think the other thing that comes up a lot with couples is they kind of like once they kind of get going, then they kind of can’t stop in some ways. So, it’s like, you know, maybe they started talking about, you know, problem A and then as the conversation goes on, like now they’re talking about problems like B, C, D, and E. And so that’s like also super overwhelming and also like super difficult then, right? Like you know, maybe A was a big enough problem, but when you add on like now you have to solve ABCD and E, you’re definitely not going to solve like any of them. And so I really encourage couples too to like just you stay focused like if we’re going to start talking about A, like we’re going to stick with A and then if you also need to talk about B, like sure, you can do that, but like you talk about B later. You don’t need to talk about B right now. So I think just again kind of trying to kind of stay within scope and um and again really just kind of making sure that you know you’re able to engage And I think there’s things you can do by really focusing on a single single problem at a time um that helps you kind of do that.

(Host): I think that it’s easy to get your emotions in the way of you know wanting to solve a problem. I think you know by doing some of those things you can sort of reframe different elements of an interaction and sort of work together to you know push past it.

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. And I think exactly I just want to pick up on something you said like work together right like again, you are like you’re a team, right? Like kind of, you know, and you both like kind of want you both want to be happy and you kind of want the other person to be happy. And I think sometimes like in the heat of the moment, we can maybe forget that. And so again, kind of taking that step back and just saying like, yeah, like, hey, like, you know, I I want, you know, we both want things to go more smoothly, so let’s kind of do let’s kind of do that, right? And like how can we do that together versus, you know, it’s very tempting to be like, oh, well, you need to you need to change to match me, right? Right. And you know, but both people do that and it’s like, well, I guess we’re stuck versus, okay, well, how can we kind of understand where the other person’s coming from a little bit, which might need to which might lead to more like natural kinds of changes and compromise.

(Host): I also I also wanted to talk about we were just talking about intimate relationships, but just, you know, typical social communication. I feel like in the world today, who we communicate to sort of matters. You know, you know how much of communication is sort of like ritualistic. We don’t communicate to hear other perspectives but more to reestablish our own perceptions of the world.

** Communication and Echo Chambers**

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. So I think that’s definitely a concern. I think people will kind of talk about I think political scientists will sometimes talk about being in echo chambers, right? Where people kind of are just in in kind of context where they’re kind of, you know, they’re saying something and basically other people are kind of saying the exact same thing that they are saying and we’re kind of selecting into those types of environments, right? And so we’re not kind of getting a broad range of perspectives and um and so I do think that is a concern and I think people kind of talk about that right and you know so in a way it’s you know we’re kind of so on the one hand you could look at it and say oh you know people are you know if you’re engaging on you know social media or you know X or something like that right and it’s like oh you kind of get to interact with like a hu like a lot more people than you would before but maybe like those people are very similar to you and so you’re kind of you know just doing a similar you know you’re kind of all saying the same sort of things and you’re being exposed to the same kind of viewpoints. And so I think that definitely can kind of lead to people getting like hardened in their positions um and maybe not being kind of as open to interacting with others. And I think like you said, you know, I think sometimes we can see things, you know, like in very extremes forms like your prejudice and discrimination, but I think it can also just happen in other points of view as well, right? Where kind of, you know, it’s just more like, oh, kind of I, you know, I’m kind of constantly listening to people who who think like I do. And so then you are not then kind of as open to other points of view because you’re you partly I think we almost develop this viewpoint of like well how can like how can anybody think differently and it’s like well if you’re never like exposed to other kind of viewpoints it’s very easy to to think that way right and so I think kind of bridging those sorts of divides is really important and I think but it’s one that becomes very difficult then right when when you’re kind of only exposed and around people who think and talk like you do. Yeah. How how do you how do you suggest that people sort of open themselves up to the wider world? How do how do you kind of increase that exposure?

(Host): Yeah. I mean, I think it’s, you know, I think it’s it’s tricky, right? Like I think partly it’s, you know, it’s like I think just being kind of open to other to other viewpoints and kind of, you know, thinking about like what are you interacting with, right? Like and kind of who are you interacting with? And obviously, you know, people should feel, you know, that they are in in settings where they are respected, right? You know, and so I kind of don’t want body to kind of have to, you know, put themselves out there in that way. But I do think it’s it’s helpful and healthy to have friends who have a range of beliefs and, you know, and I know you that’s the case that’s the case for me, right? And there’s, you know, certain issues where I kind of say, “Oh, you know, I kind of you this one is one that’s kind of, you know, you know, tougher one for me personally, for example.” But, you know, I think also just, you know, I think maybe if if kind of that sort of live interaction is hard for people. I think just, you know, there’s lots of stuff that people could kind of read online in terms of just like reading other people’s kinds of viewpoints and um you know I think you know we hear you’ll hear a lot about just kind of different types of media right but I think you know even you know some outlets often will try to have different sorts of viewpoints that they um that you they’ll have like and I know there’s um like I subscribed to New York Times for example and I know like they have one column where there’s kind of a more um conserv like someone who has a more conservative view and someone with a more liberal view and they write like a column together actually and it’s kind of them you know, in conver it’s like them in conversation but in written form. And I think that’s just really nice and actually like a good a good model for how people can have, you know, different beliefs on some things. But then you also see that there’s some commonalities there. And that you also, I think, recognize too for for some of those things as well that um that maybe your ultimate goal is the same, but you have different viewpoints on how you kind of get there. And um and that it’s not always necessarily like a values conflict. And I think sometimes it’s we and think that that might be the case.

(Host): How does how does writing sort of make it easier for people to sort of share viewpoints?

** The Role of Writing in Communication**

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. So, I think so I think with writing we can kind of take our time a little bit more, right? And we can think about what we’re saying. We can kind of look at it and we can see like, oh, does that kind of capture it, right? Versus, you know, when we’re talking kind of once it’s out kind of we can’t, you know, there’s no there’s no delete button, right? Like we can, you know, and you know, I’ve obviously done that today, right? I’ve said, “Oh, like actually kind of I mean this or something like that, but you know, I think I know for me like I feel like it is um easier in some ways to to write about more kind of complex issues because I don’t have to do it on on the fly and I can really kind of sit and kind of think through what I’m going to say.” Um, that said, I also do think though sometimes with writing, you know, I think a lot of people times we’ll talk about being like paralyzed when they’re trying to write as well, right? And so they’re, you know, it’s like, oh, you know, that I don’t, you know, I think I think that ability to kind of control what you say more tightly can be good or bad in in in terms of kind of communicating with others, right? Because I think sometimes you can feel like, oh, I I kind of, you know, if I just said something, it’d be out there and then then at least we’re interacting and we’re moving past it versus me having to kind of craft the perfect message or something like that. Um, I think there’s also I guess the other part is thinking about like synchronous versus asynchronous communication as well. And so I think again pros and cons of both. I think one thing that’s kind of sometimes can be nice with you know synchronous communication right is you’re having that conversation in real time and so you’re getting to kind of adjust based on on what’s happening versus you know I I send you something then I’m waiting who knows how long back right so I think sometimes it can I think it can sometimes feel hard to kind of have feel like there’s momentum in those, you know, it’s still a conversation, but it’s not kind of the same type of fluidity that a synchronous conversation would have. Um, but again, sometimes an asynchronous conversation can be good too for, you know, maybe like, you know, it it does kind of give people some time you especially for more difficult topics, right, to collect their thoughts a little bit or I think also, you know, more casually asynchronous communication can be nice just as a way to it’s like a way to stay connected with people without it having to be like you both have to be kind of you know, ready at that kind of moment, right? Or you I think, you know, or catching up with friends or something like that, like you can kind of do that when you’re kind of in between other things and it doesn’t have to be like, oh, I’m going to sit down and talk to you on you on FaceTime for an hour.

(Host): Yeah. So, like, so like text and asynchronous communication in my mind, it’s very convenient, you know, if you’re doing things and sort of busy and then you have like sort of a a less important interaction with someone like, you know, I’m going to eat dinner at 7 o’clock, will you meet me at place? And

it sort of it makes it convenient there. But like why is it important to have sort of more important conversations in a personal face-toface interaction rather than sort of an asynchronous form?

** Face-to-Face vs. Asynchronous Communication**

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah, I think kind of with with the asynchronous form there’s just a lot of context that we’re that we kind of miss, right? So I think you know again I think you know people like it can be the exact same words and then you know, people can kind of mean them a lot of different ways and you can interpret them a lot of different ways too. And so I think especially with um you know, more serious conversations, that’s where kind of those ambiguities kind of really matter, right? So you know, let’s say I I say something, let’s say like the words are neutral, but I was intending it as like a posit. So like let’s say something even like I text you something like oh like hey, we can talk more about it later, right? And like and for me actually that was kind of intended more of a like, hey, like I’m about to go do something like you know, but for you like you kind of you maybe we’ve just been talking about something more serious and you then worry like oh like you know is he mad? Is you know kind of like you know what’s he going to say? And so I think there’s like things like that that we kind of don’t you know it can be hard to just kind of pick up like people’s tone sometimes in text. And so I think that can be really hard. I don’t know. I think for me at least like when you’re interacting with someone live like you also remember I think a little bit more that they’re a whole person and that there’s more to them than the specific thing that you’re talking about right versus if it’s just kind of you know texting or something like that like I think it can sometimes kind of get easy be easy to kind of get caught up in like that specific thing versus kind of remembering everything else and so I think there’s something about that as well but I’m curious for you like Adam I guess for you like I guess when you have kind of more live conversations like what do you think is better about that.

(Host): Well, I mean, I think uh I think a lot of it has to do because it’s not I think communication is more than just, you know, verbal and sounds. It’s body language, too. It’s how people look when they talk. It’s about the tone that they use in the voice. You know, it’s it’s so much more than what they say. And I just feel like a like asynchronous communication is very convenient, but I think it it misses a lot of those things, you know?

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(Host): I kind of wanted to talk about media because that’s that’s sort of a big thing, you know, in today’s modern society. It’s it’s sort of, you know, increased to the point where you know everyone can sort of communicate to large audiences through these social media mediums. It’s good on the on the basis that everyone’s able to sort of express themselves openly. It makes that more convenient, but it just concerns me because I feel like there’s a lack of sort of credibility. I think a lot of false misleading ideas can sort of ripple through society a lot easier. You know, what are your thoughts on you know, social media and just people being able to sort of communicate to large audiences.

** Media, Social Media, and Credibility**

(Dr. Lavner): Yeah. So, I mean, yeah. So, so I guess as I said, you know, kind of just for me personally, actually, so I have some social media accounts, but I’m not I’m not on X or anything like that. And um, you know, you know, kind of to give you an indicator kind of where I fall on that. I think, you know, partly it’s like um I kind of like, you know, for me personally, like the social media is kind of a way to like actually like keep keep up with friends and family and and things like that. But um you know I know a lot of people kind of use it and and I think it you know for kind of more kind of broad kind of consumption and dissemination. Um I I do agree. I think in some ways I think that can be good and you know in terms of like what you talked about about people kind of being exposed to more things maybe than they would have otherwise. I think you know I think one thing that can be sometimes just is is kind of on the dissemination side. I think people here I think you know again because you’re just like kind of typing it in your phone right like you know you’re about to send something and it’s the same as like you know you know it’s the same as like you typing a note to yourself or you texting your mom but instead it’s going out to hundreds thousands tens of thousands of people and so you know I think one thing I I think I you know sometimes think about you know and again because you’re not like seeing them right like you’re just kind of you know you know they’re out there but it’s like almost I think about it be like oh like if someone you know would someone kind of do that if they had to like go and stand and stand in Sanford Stadium and then like yell that to everybody, right? Like I don’t I think there are some things that people wouldn’t say and and I think on the one hand you could say oh well that’s you know that’s good because it kind of reduces maybe that kind of stage fright kind of aspect of it but I think it sometimes can lead people to saying things that then they later regret when they kind of realize like oh actually that you know was not that well thought out and I should have you know or you know I said something that was really hurtful and discriminatory or you know or also just that doesn’t kind of fully like represent the new like I I think the other thing is I think sometimes too you know on on social media like things that get attention are the things that are really pathy and and um but obviously kind of you know that goes against like the complexity of of thought and that we kind of all have and so I think sometimes it kind of operates against that as well. So I think I think it’s really tricky right and I think you know it’s it’s kind of not going anywhere obviously but I think it’s just you I think just being thoughtful about like the ways that we’re engaging. I think like you say too like also kind of to what we’re consuming as well. And I think, you know, one thing obviously too, you know, as we’re thinking about media more broadly. Um, I think also too, like we’re seeing obviously a lot more AI use, right? And so, you know, that’s the other thing is like, you know, is is what you’re reading like actually real and you know, so I think there’s some of that stuff and as that gets super sophisticated, it’s going to be really hard to to know that, right? And um, you know, I think increasingly we’ll kind of have to rely on others to kind of flag things and Um, so I think there I think just kind of approaching things with kind of a like healthy skepticism too and you know education at places like UG trains you kind of to be really good critical thinkers and so kind of making sure that you know we’re not just like consumers of knowledge but also that we are kind of critically reflecting on on the information that we’re consuming as well.

(Host): Yeah, for sure. Uh I do want to talk about AI but uh first I I kind of wanted to talk about really in modern society people are starting you know, we’re talking about media sort of exploding, you know, the way it is. Do people sort of prioritize interaction with media over interpersonal interaction? You know, is is that sort of a thing that’s going on? And, you know, what are sort of the effects that that has on society?

** Media Consumption vs. Interpersonal Interaction**

(Dr. Lavner): *Yeah. So, that’s a good question. So, I don’t I’m not like familiar with any data off that on you know, but you know, my guess is just kind of anecdotally like I think just based on some data about how much like you know, there has been data how much slash how little people kind of get together with their friends which is really not that high and versus how